Our guests: Scott Lamp, RPh Director, Coastal District Bureau of Drug Control Healthcare Quality SC DHEC, and Sarah Chapman, PharmD Agent, Coastal District Bureau of Drug Control Healthcare Quality SC DHEC
Scott and Sarah break down the basics of a behavioral interview and when to use it. We also talk about what it means to have the natural traits of being a good interviewer. These are hard to put into words, but if you have it you recognize it. Join us to hear team members from SC DHEC share their tips for a more successful investigation.
Transcript:
Terri
Welcome back, listeners. My two guests today are from the South Carolina Department of Health and Environmental Control, also known as DHEC. So you may hear them call it DHEC. They are with the Bureau of Drug Control within DHEC. First, we have Scott Lamp. He is the director for the Coastal District, and he has been on a previous podcast titled Pharmacist With a Badge, which I think is pretty cool. So listen to that if you want a little bit more information on Scott and what their agency does. I think South Carolina is very fortunate to have such a bureau. They do, I think, some really great things, and they partner with their facilities in the area, and I think it’s fantastic. We also have Agent Sarah Chapman. I want to welcome you both. And Sarah, are you a pharmacist as well with a badge?
Sarah
I am.
Terri
Okay. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about your journey as a pharmacist and how you ended up with DHEC.
Sarah
Sure. I graduated pharmacy school with no thought that I would ever become law enforcement. That was not on my radar at all. I did work retail for a few years, and I had a friend that worked with DHEC in a different agency. She was more on the public health side, and she heard that this opening was available, and she actually reached out to me and said, I think you might like this. She and I had gone to school together, and I applied, and here I am. Yeah, it’s one of those you just kind of fall into the things that are meant for you sometimes, I think.
Terri
Yeah. And to be open to the possibilities of and like you said, it never occurred to you? I don’t think it would occur to most pharmacists that they would transition into law enforcement. Was that the same? I’d have to go back and listen to your story. Scott, you kind of ended up the same way that you just here you are in DHEC.
Scott
Yeah. And thanks for inviting me back, Terri. I appreciate. Yeah. Much like Sarah, when I graduated, I had no thoughts of being law enforcement that never was, never even dreamed of that. But after years of working different retail opportunities, had some hospital experience, a couple years of that, I noticed a trend where I took my gatekeeping responsibilities a lot more seriously than some of my peers did. And so I found myself not necessarily in trouble, but I held myself to a standard that some of my supervisors didn’t appreciate. And so it was a natural progression to this role when it happened. And when I got the job, I realized, wow, I’m home.
Terri
Yeah. It’s funny, you made me think of a story of myself I did a little bit of later in my career when I did a little bit of community pharmacy work just in a local pharmacy close by. And my first, of course, is how do you keep track of your controlled substances? Right? And a lot of times the technician’s answer would be, that’s the way we roll. And I’m like, well, you’re going to roll yourself right into something. Your pharmacist in charge is going to roll right past you if you keep doing it this way. And I worked a couple of shifts. They wanted me to help them get things kind of under control, but I worked a couple of shifts, and I ended up making phone calls to physicians offices for like, did you write this prescription?
Terri
And let’s just say it was short lived at that community pharmacy because I think I took my role too seriously as well. So I definitely hear what you’re saying. I’m just curious. I don’t think I had asked you, Scott, previously, what’s involved in the training? I mean, do you go mean law enforcement training different than police? I mean, what is involved?
Scott
It’s the same training. We become class one officers just like anybody in South Carolina. Okay. And I also add that after being in this role since 2019 and having to interview people, not behavioral interview necessarily, but for employment, it is a very unique person, a very unique pharmacist that we’re looking for and to actually succeed at this job, but it’s a very rewarding one. But it’s much more challenging than I would have anticipated it to be.
Terri
Yeah, no, I can totally see that because that’s not the makeup of many pharmacists. It’s a different kind of person. And I think it’s the same for finding pharmacists that will go into leadership. Director of Pharmacy that’s very difficult to find and certainly a law enforcement combination. And I think in diversion monitoring as well, it’s a mini. It’s definitely not law enforcement, but it’s a completely different aspect of pharmacy, and that requires a certain type of personality. So I bet it is hard. Okay, well, today we’re going to talk about behavioral interviews. And Scott had mentioned this to me at one point, and it’s like, oh, what is a behavioral interview? Isn’t that kind of what we’re all doing? Because we’re watching behaviors? But I think I’m wrong, and I think there’s more to it.
Terri
So first let me ask, is a behavioral interview what you typically do? Is that the kind of interview you typically employ, or is that just one of many different types?
Scott
Yeah, with our role, I think we’re constantly interviewing people. When we do an inspection, we’re asking questions. And of course, that’s not going to be a behavioral interview. We may be questioning not the subject of a crime, but the witnesses. And in that case, we wouldn’t necessarily need to be using a behavioral interview technique with that. Me personally, I have started off with one technique, and then because of a couple of answers, you immediately realize, hey, something isn’t quite right here, and you may have to switch techniques to a behavioral interview, but I wouldn’t say that we necessarily would always start off that way.
Terri
Okay, so define for us what is a behavioral interview and how might that differ from other approaches?
Scott
Okay, so first of all, behavioral interviewing is not anything new. It’s been around for a long time. And when you say behavioral interviewing, you do have to kind of make the distinction that behavioral interviewing, when you’re talking about an employment interview, behavioral interviews, they’re going to go into trying to get you to talk about a scenario that happened before. Tell us about a time where a customer irritated you and how did you fix the situation. And so that’s going to give them some insight into what their future is going to look like. If they were to be employed with this company, what would they do in situations like that? And so in law enforcement, we’re trying to ask open ended questions to get them to talk. The goal is to get them to talk.
Scott
And the more that they talk, the more it gives us the opportunity to focus on what they’re doing with their nonverbal, their posture, their nonverbal facial expressions, that kind of stuff. And so that gives us some insight on when they’re telling the truth and when they’re lying. So we try to ask some very easy questions at first to kind of get the roadmap on that, if that makes sense.
Terri
Okay, so if I’m in an interview and I kind of take the approach of getting a little bit about their background, and then what is your understanding of policies and procedures on this? Is there ever a time that you would that would those be typical behavioral interview questions?
Scott
Yeah, we would just ask some questions that we already know the answers to. So what’s your full name? Where do you currently live? Anything that you know the answer to? And that way you kind of can see what they look like when they’re telling the truth and then we can transition to the harder questions later on.
Terri
Okay, so how does that differ from some of the other approaches and other types of interviews? Does it kind of come down to why you’re interviewing, like you said, a witness, an inspection versus somebody that you think might be guilty of something and you’re trying to determine guilt. I mean, how do you determine which approach to use?
Scott
Well, I think it’s situational for the most part. Like I mentioned, the techniques we would be using during an inspection or an audit. It would be more informational gathering. So we’re not trying to really catch them in anything where if we’re employing the behavioral interviewing, we’ve done an extensive background check and we’ve tried to gain the knowledge in advance of what we need to find out and what questions we need to ask that are going to be those key questions to see. Okay. Is this person our guilty party? Again, it’s situational. But again, the situation can change in a heartbeat. So what we start off with might have to switch if we start to see that the person is lying to us when we wouldn’t be expecting them to lie to us because we’re not trying to interview them.
Terri
Okay. All right. So to kind of state back, what I think I’m hearing is that if you have somebody that you suspect and you’ve got the information, then you probably would go in and start with a behavioral interview if you did not think that was going on. But you realize later while you’re talking to them with some other approach, then you may transition into a behavioral interview. Is that okay? All right. So, Sarah, share with us what is your approach? Scott had mentioned to me that you have a very methodical, great approach when you go into these interviews. So what is it that you are looking for and how are you determining what your approach is going to be?
Sarah
So I think one of the biggest anxieties that people have about my style is that I don’t have a plan.
Terri
Okay.
Sarah
When I go in, I don’t outline my questions. For me, I’m just going to have a conversation with the person. For the most part, you have been able to research as far as why are you interviewing this person, why are you even talking to this person? So you have in front of you a lot of knowledge as far as the activity controlled substance polls, what they are and what they aren’t doing. You have a ton of information in front of you already. So for me, I just want to have a conversation with them, get to know them, and have them tell me what is their behavior, tell me the policies. And I just go from there, and I slowly start to ask more specific questions as I go. The big thing is I want to just get them talking. I don’t know these people.
Sarah
They don’t know me at all. I think it’s a benefit to not know the person at all because you can have those very the small talk conversations. You can get through those things, get them talking, and then ease into very specific questions about their behavior and what they’re doing as far as the controlled substance behavior that you’re seeing, and just see how things change as far as their demeanor, how they’re sitting, the way that they’re answering your questions. When you start to get more specific, yeah.
Terri
And I think certainly that’s where your background comes in, because when you’re looking over that data for somebody without the clinical experience, you haven’t been there. So it’s really a lot. I mean, over years, somebody can kind of get used to it, but you don’t have to be told twice. It’s like, okay, that’s not right, and this is what they were doing, and you know why it’s not right. And you don’t have to keep as much necessarily in your head other than the overall of what they’re doing from that clinical perspective of handling that medication. So I think that’s definitely where the benefit comes. And yeah, I’m with you on that. I tend to have kind of that set of questions that I would ask everybody, but definitely need to be prepared to pivot and go in whatever direction comes up.
Terri
And that’s really hard to teach somebody. I think it’s hard to learn how to interview and then also be able to be ready to pivot because you’re listening. You kind of have to be, I guess relaxed, for lack of a better word. Right. If the interviewer is stressed out about the interview and thinking of the next question, then you’re not really listening and focused. And so that’s just I’m guessing it took you a while to get there, or did it just come like, naturally?
Sarah
I think it’s just me. Okay. It’s one of those, like I said, it’s a very natural role that I was able to get the very fine, almost the quality control level of really digging in and just seeing things and being able to have that conversation with somebody. It’s almost like you have a different part of your head that’s logging things for you. So when things start to not make sense somewhere in there, it’s cataloging in your own mind. So you can do that pivot and bring it back somewhere later on. Not right away, because you don’t want to do that to the person you’re interviewing. You just slowly ask the same question a different way because your brain noticed that it didn’t match up somewhere.
Terri
Yeah, okay.
Sarah
And that’s the hardest part about interviewing. And that’s when Scott approached me about this. I was like, yeah. And then I started thinking, I don’t know how to talk to somebody about know, because I don’t really know what.
Terri
I do when doing right, no, I completely hear you and it sounds like you got a winner there, Scott. And he probably did the behavioral interview on you when he was evaluating you for hiring. I’m going to guess I got hired before him. Okay, so he had nothing to do with it. He got lucky. Yeah, but no, it’s true. Like, I put a list together for a client of what are the traits a person has to have some inherent traits to make them a good interviewer. I mean, you can’t just take, okay, well, this is the person on our diversion committee, and we’re going to put them in charge of interviewing.
Terri
Yeah, you can train them, but it doesn’t mean they’re ever going to be a good interviewer because there are certain things that they need to be good at before they ever learn how to interview. And you’re right, it’s hard to put that into words. It’s that attention to detail. It’s that quick mind. Some people are faster than others. Doesn’t mean more intelligent or less intelligent. It’s just the way you process, and it’s like you picked that out that somebody else is going to miss, plus the ability to just be quiet and to listen. And so I hear what you’re saying and it is hard to articulate. And I think that’s great, though, that you recognize it, because sometimes we take our skill sets for granted and it’s like, well, doesn’t everybody do that? But definitely not.
Terri
And each of us has a different skill set. And so putting ourselves in a position where we can thrive with those skill sets is great. And it does sound like you have definitely found what you’re good at. So can you give the listeners? I think some of the interview techniques that I talked about in the past with other people on the podcast are very similar. We maybe have not referred to it as a behavioral interview, but let’s start with the small talk piece of it. I have a little bit of trouble with the small talk because I’m not very good at small talk, period, like, even when I’m not interviewing you. So what kinds of things you said that you don’t know them? So it’s kind of easy for you to get through that.
Terri
Give us some examples of how you kind of start that, because that person sitting there knows that something is wrong, right? And you’re in a position of authority. And so to have small talk without minimizing it and I think about too, if someone were interviewing me and they were making small talk, I’d be like, Shut up already, get to the point. So what kinds of things do you do?
Sarah
So the start of it is you always give me your name, position, date of birth, contact information. That’s the very easy. Answer these questions and start talking. And then I usually move into how long have you worked here? Have you always worked on that unit? Do you like your job? Where did you go to school? Do you live here? Are you from this area? Is your family here? I start getting into a little more personal side of things as far as if they say their family lives in the area. Oh, do you have kids? Is that your sister getting into the family aspect of it? Because that brings you tap into that emotion part, because that’s a personal part of them. So you’re connecting with them on a level that they didn’t come in there connected to.
Sarah
Because I know if I were walking in to be asked about controlled substance activity and I have that kind of anxiety, I’m not thinking about talking to you about my family. So it kind of switches gears on them a little bit, and then it’s a very brief few questions I’ll ask about family in the area. Why did you want to go to school? Usually in this setting, we’ll just say it’s the nurse. Why did you want to go to nursing school? What did you want to do when you started nursing school? Is this what you still want to do? Very simple questions about them and who they are as a person. And then I will say, do you know why I’m here to talk to you. If they say yes, okay, explain that to me.
Sarah
If it’s no, then okay, well, we do have some questions about some activity that we’ve seen, and I want to give you the opportunity to sit down, explain this to me so I can understand what’s going on, and that’s kind of how I start getting into what’s really happening. But we’ve had a good ten minutes of not talking about that before I switch that gear.
Terri
Okay, I like that. Talking about the family. Are you from this area? Do you like this job? Why did you get into this field in the first place? I think those are great ideas, and I can’t say that I’ve ever gone in that particular direction before, but I could see how it would beneficial. Yeah. You’re not trying to fake the find something in common or the latest current affairs or that type of thing.
Sarah
Like you said, I’m not good at that. I don’t like sports, so I can’t have that conversation. There’s a lot of things that I’ve just yeah, I went to school, they went to school. It’s very easy to I have a family.
Terri
Yeah, okay. I like that. That’s good. Okay. And then you start getting into a little bit of the background to kind of hear them talk about their processes and that type of thing. Is that what you move into next?
Sarah
Yes. So I will usually say again, because in this setting, we’re typically talking to nurses. Something I have found helpful is to keep in mind that most healthcare professionals, especially nurses, get into the profession because they want to help people. And that’s usually the answer I get, or in some shape or form when you ask, why did you want to go to nursing school? So I use that as a common theme. As far as helping, I’ll say, okay, well, help me understand your policy. Help me understand the process. And I will keep saying help me, because they are the type of people that want to help. And I always say, tell me what your policy is. Okay, now tell me what you actually do. And I don’t say it in a you’re going to get in trouble for telling me you don’t follow policy.
Sarah
Because I’ll tell them because I’m not employed by the facility. I’m like, look, I don’t care. I know you’re busy. I know how things really happen. I know you’ve got a million things to do in 3 seconds to do it. I get it. But we need to understand why we’re seeing what we’re seeing. So tell me how it actually happens, and I let them know. I’m not here to get them in trouble for policy violations. I just need to know what’s really happening in the reality. And I will just say most of the time there’s not anybody there from that facility. I’ll say, look, they’re not in here. Just tell me I’m not going to get you in trouble for policy.
Terri
Okay? Yeah, that’s what I was going to ask if you had people in there because sometimes what you’re seeing in the data really is just somebody that’s taken a bunch of shortcuts and if they were just honest then the diversion would be off the table and now this is a different direction. Right. But they don’t want to say that in front of the supervisor and admit that they were not following the policy and it’s like you’re going to get in more trouble if you don’t admit to just not following the policy.
Sarah
That is something that is very helpful. If you are coming in with a bigger team to interview or you have representatives there from the facility, it is always good to ask them before anything starts. If at some point I give you a look or I say can you step out? That everybody understands that you are kind of sensing that the person doesn’t want to talk because there are people there that are closer to them. Maybe it’s their unit supervisor or maybe it is the pharmacist that they deal with for diversion all the time. It’s somebody that they see. So it’s very personal for them and it’s hard for them to admit certain things in front of them. So for me, I’m just an outsider. It’s a lot easier sometimes for people to admit those things to a completely unknown person.
Sarah
That is important if you’re going to have other people in there with you that they understand there might be a moment that you ask them to step out.
Terri
Yeah, and I’ve heard people put it both directions. It’s like, well, it’s comforting to have somebody in there that they know and they’re comfortable with and they know will support them. But then I’ve also heard people say it’s better to not have anybody you know in there and it’s just a complete stranger. Do you find it kind of both or do you find it leaning?
Sarah
I’ve had more success with having nobody in there that they know. The one time that it did go well is because the person that was in there was able to almost fact check what the person was saying as it was happening. So she was able to actually text somebody on the unit saying hey, double check patient so and so because she’s saying and they’re like no. And I’m like, okay, well no. And I wouldn’t have been able to do that in there by myself because I didn’t have access to the EHR. So that’s probably one of the few times that has been very beneficial. But for the most part it goes better when it’s just one one.
Terri
Okay. Yeah. And really in the case that it went well, it didn’t go better because they had the support of somebody that they knew. It was literally because they were fact checking. So I’m curious in that kind of a setting so in an interview, you want to be able to roll along, right, and not have people interrupt you. So that particular interview, how did that work with them signaling you and letting you know that wasn’t or did you take a break and then they no.
Sarah
That was not a behavioral interview.
Terri
Okay.
Sarah
We had already gone through all of the opportunities for the person to tell us what was really going on. So when it came down to we’re just going to start direct fact checking everything that you’re telling us, that’s when it finally fell apart on that person.
Terri
Okay, all right, so that brings up another point then. Okay, so the behavioral interview, you’re going along, you’re asking your questions and the goal is to one observe and to see if there’s anything that stands out to you. Right. But you’re also trying to appeal to that person and get them to finally admit if there is anything going on or admit to whatever it is that’s making them stand out right. And look different. So at some point, do you get to the end of what you would call the behavioral interview and then you take a different direction?
Sarah
Well, yes, depending if the person is getting very emotional, whether it be there’s crying, where you can just see that they’re shutting down on you, they don’t want to be pressured anymore. Usually I will switch to a different method. I will go into an interview with actual pronouns of reports. There’s missing ways. Okay, well, there’s this and this is what you did. I have it all there. But I will not pull that out until I’m done with the behavior part when I really feel like they’re shutting down or they’re not going to volunteer more information. That’s kind of my last go to is I start pulling out all of the hard evidence in front of them because we can talk all day about the policy theoretical, well, what would you do here? Okay, what about this time? But they don’t really remember it.
Sarah
But it’s very hard at the end of the day to pull out that report and set it down in front of them and say, explain that to me. What happened there? Usually when you put that down in front of them, a lot of times you don’t get answer. So it is very good to have another one and another one. And so when you keep pulling these and then this and then you keep stacking that’s usually beneficial because they see, oh, it’s not just that one that they know about, it’s this one and this one.
Terri
Okay, so you share specific transactions with them as opposed to themes like, would it surprise you to know that you dispense 40% more than your peers? That would be, I would think, part of the behavioral interview to hear what they have to say versus you remove two tabs for this patient, what happened there?
Sarah
So, yes, I will start very broad. The entire interview is moving from incredibly broad to slowly zeroing in on a very specific few or multiple instances where you set that down in front of them and say, what about this?
Terri
Okay.
Sarah
Sorry, pressure for them. Very often in an interview, I will be very broad about something and then I quickly will almost turn up the pressure and get specific about something, see how they react to that and that’s that behavior part you’re watching, well, what’s happening? When I get really specific about this and I’ll let that pressure sit with that person and then you almost release it and go on. But then there’s that part in your head that I said you can’t really explain or teach in the back of your head somewhere. You’re logging that and you circle back to it in a different way to put that pressure back on again. And then you just keep building that pressure on that person.
Terri
Right? Do either one of you have any recommendations for sometimes you’ve got specific incidences? Like, I don’t know, let’s say you interview the patient. The patient said, no, I didn’t get it. So now you can really talk about that incident, right? But if you have more of just kind of an overall wear and again, we always pick on nurses just because they’re the largest group of healthcare professionals. But if you’ve got a nurse that everything looks on the up and up from all the documentation and you’ve got a witness for every waste that they’ve done and they have followed procedures, but the numbers and the data just tell you that this is a lot. That’s a lot for their patients. Do you have any specific advice on a case like that?
Terri
Because there is no real thing to dig into or to ask about a specific transaction. It’s just like, why do your patients take more than other patients? Or you use this so much more. What’s your philosophy on giving opioids or whatever? How do you handle that? If you have any advice for anybody in an interview in that situation.
Sarah
Well, those are the tough ones. I know those are probably all of our least favorite because there isn’t that good way to put that pressure on the person. That’s where a lot of homework on your part before you go into that interview is very important. There’s no rush to talk to that person. I cannot say enough that you cannot over prepare as far as looking through documentation, get a good couple of months worth looking at pain scores, how are they documenting pain scores? Is it all prns that they’re pulling? Looking very closely at did. That person pull medication for this patient regularly and then every day they didn’t work that same exact patient. Nobody is pulling that’s. How?
Sarah
While there might not be very specific instances as far as a missing waste or a verbal order that was put in that wouldn’t normally be put in things like the pain scale charting, comparing them to immediate shift on that same patient where maybe the whole standard deviation report isn’t going to show you that part of it. Those are the things that I like to look at more. And then non controlled are they pulling other non controlled substances with them? So that’s where the pharmacist part comes in. That can also help you that the report isn’t going to show you well, some of the divergence software isn’t going to show you.
Terri
Right, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because I don’t know, maybe it hasn’t happened to you because you guys are fully trained and know what you’re doing, but sometimes you get to an interview and it’s just like, okay, I don’t know what else to say because I don’t have the smoking gun. I know something’s up, but you’re denying it. And I’ve been trying to come at you in all different ways, in different directions, and let me help you, but you are this and then at the end you’re like, I don’t know, we’re done, I guess.
Terri
Yeah. That’s hard.
Sarah
It is. And it’s hard. It’s frustrating. But we try to tell ourselves, at least me and my immediate coworkers, that if it truly is what we think it is, we’ll see it again.
Terri
Yeah, that’s true. So just keep an eye on things. And that’s happened too. Yeah. And you just hope that you see it again. But still there’s no harm because I think a lot of us, when you said prepare, get a couple of months worth of stuff and you can go back retro. But I think people also struggle with, do we bring them in now? Okay, I’ve reviewed the data for a couple of days, or do we wait until maybe we can conduct another patient interview or let’s give it some time because now you’re worried about I think there’s something and so what’s my liability if I let this continue? Right, but you’re maybe not quite ready and don’t have quite enough, so do you wait?
Scott
Yeah. And I think sometimes that’s the challenge is because the hospital is worried about the liability, but they don’t have that smoking gun, and they aren’t willing to give it a little bit of time to do some different techniques like patient interviews. Did you get the medication, monitoring the vitals after the medication was given to see if there’s any changes? And sometimes even the hospital, I’ve had a hospital that they employed some covert cameras on the hallway so that they could see was the nurse going in the room to give the medication. So there’s plenty of things that you can use in a situation like that where you don’t have a smoking gun, and often it’s the nurse that’s maybe just starting to divert and all that paperwork is going to be spot on. That will be most challenging.
Scott
But rushing the interview is probably the number one problem that we run into when it comes to that situation.
Terri
Okay. Yeah. And your whole team at the facility, I mean, in your case, it’s a little bit different, but everyone at the facility has got to be on the same page and same, too, when they call you, if they leave the decision up to you can say, let’s wait a little bit longer, let’s do this. But so often at a facility, sometimes you don’t even have everybody on the same page. You could have the manager or the supervisor like, no, they’re the best that we don’t need this. And then you could have the diversion specialist saying, no way, man, this is a problem. And then you could have administration that is not completely engaged. You’re not going to get buy in to put a camera in the hallway for that event. So that’s a challenge, too, is getting everyone together for that. Okay.
Terri
Anything else? Either one of you wants to add on advice, lessons learned for anybody listening out there.
Scott
Just to kind of expand to what you just said about being on the same page. We’ve had a lot of success where we go in and talk to the people that would be making key decisions as far as what they’re going to do with someone, diverting in advance of something actually happening and trying. To tell them what we do, how we do it, what we would like to see in a situation where that occurs, where diversion may be occurring, so that hopefully, when it does happen, the roadmap is already there and you kind of know where their boundaries are. And so I think it makes it a much more efficient process.
Terri
Absolutely know what you’re going to do before you get there because in the heat of yeah. People are not always thinking that big picture. They just want to act, and that’s where we can sometimes get in trouble.
Scott
Right.
Terri
Okay. All right. Well, this is interesting, and I definitely think you found your home, Sarah, so keep doing what you’re doing, and South Carolina is lucky to have you both and your program. I think that’s really great.
Scott
Thanks, Terri. Appreciate it.
Terri
All right. Thank you both, and thank you, listeners, for listening today. Enjoy the rest of your day.
